Saving or Engaging? Rethinking Community Facilitation, a conversation with Ananya Banerjee and Annie Chau with Pedagogies of Community Engagement Collective. Hosted by Sherry Ostapovitch and Hani Sadati.

Sherry Ostapovitch: [00:00:13] Welcome to the WhyPAR Podcast, a podcast of the Youth Research Lab at OISE - the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education. 

My name is Sherry Ostapovitch and this episode of the WhyPAR Podcast is the first in a special series produced by Pedagogies of Community Engagement Collective. The PeCEP project was created to explore, generate and share knowledge about facilitation practices that support community-engaged work across different sectors. In this special series of three podcasts, members of the PeCEP collective reflect on their experiences as community-engaged facilitators, confronting some of the dilemmas and tensions, as well as the opportunities and joys of working with, in, and for communities. 

In this first podcast episode entitled, Saving or Engaging? Rethinking Community Facilitation Hani Sadati speaks with Ananya Banerjee and Annie Chau about saviorism, where facilitators step in to ‘save’ or ‘fix’ people or communities that are marginalized. Get ready for some honest reflections from community-engaged researchers and facilitators who have questioned the very existence of their work.

Hani Sadati: [00:01:22] Saving or engaging? This is the question. When we enter a community space, especially as facilitators, researchers or organizers, what are we really doing? Are we stepping in to save or are we showing up to support? For those of us new to this work, how do we even begin to recognize the difference between saviorism and solidarity? And for those who have been in this field for a while, where are we now in our journey of community engagement and facilitation? Are we still centering ourselves or are we learning how to pass the baton to communities to lead their own change? This podcast isn't here to preach or prescribe. Instead, it's a space for reflection, for sharing the personal stories, although uncomfortable at times, but authentic. And sharing missteps, lessons, and growth that come with doing this work. We are diving into the real and often messy work of combating the savior role of learning how to step back while still showing up, and of supporting grassroots leadership without taking the mic. So if you're wondering how to approach community engagement with humility, intention, and care, this conversation is for you. Welcome, listeners. My name is Hani Saadati. I'm supporting the Center for Community-Based Research in the role of senior Researcher, and I'm here with Dr. Ananya Tina Banerjee and Annie Chau as my guests today for this amazing conversation that we are going to have. Dr. Ananya Tina Banerjee is an. Assistant Professor and EDI lead at the School of Population and Global Health at McGill University. Her work bridges epidemiology, qualitative research and community-based participatory research with a focus on racial health equity, particularly in South Asian communities. And Annie Chau is a PhD candidate in Social Justice Education at the University of Toronto and a part-time lecturer at Sheridan College. With a background in adult education and over a decade of experience in community-based gender justice work, her research explores decolonial feminisms, refugee studies, and narrative inquiry. Okay, let's dive into this conversation. So welcome.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:03:45] Thank you. We're excited to be here. Yeah.

Hani Sadati: [00:03:48] Well, I'm going to start with reading a quote that comes out from the findings of the project Pedagogies of Community Engagement project. And this is from one of the participants of Neighborhood Arts Network focus group that we did. I'm going to read this quote, and then I'm going to ask one question about uh, related to this, uh, quote. So the participant says regarding the savior complex and saviors quote, they are here because they want to help you. I'm like, no, you're not helping. We are here for social responsibility. End of the quote. When you hear this quote, what comes to your mind? What do you make of it? Maybe I can start with Ananya.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:04:34] You know, it really reminds me, um, reading this article that was published in The Atlantic by Teju Cole, who is an incredible Nigerian artist, photographer and literary writer. Um, he is at Harvard right now. And, you know, through his photography work in particular, you know, he talked about the concept of white saviorism. Actually, he coined it. And he also said that the white savior industrial complex, like it's a system in itself, is not about justice. It's about having a big emotional experience that validates privilege. And I remember when I read that, it really just struck me and I really started to reflect on, could I be part of this complex?

Hani Sadati: [00:05:24] I saw that you have written a piece and I've taken note of that, the title of that, The Art of Medicine: Are we Training our Students to be White Saviors in Global Health? Um, how this is connected, I mean, to what you already shared right now?

Ananya Banerjee: [00:05:40] Yeah. I think, you know, someone who's been doing a lot of community engagement work for, you know, over a decade now. And even as a person of color, even working with racialized communities, you know, I really had to step back many times and really question myself. Who is this work really benefiting, given that I am, you know, part of an elite institution like McGill University? And, you know, I started to also reflect on just community members questioning me and my role and my place in the research. And I think when we think of the term white saviorism like it's uncomfortable, and I think it's important to recognize it's not about shaming or blaming white people. That even for us as people of color, we can be white saviors because we work part of institutions that, you know, want to maintain white supremacy and whiteness. Um, and so that's something Teju Cole also, uh, really highlights. And so that really pushed me to, to write a piece, um, to really enable people to just really critically think about their role in community engagement and any type of facilitation work, where they hold a bit more privilege than the communities that they're working with.

Hani Sadati: [00:07:01] Thank you so much. I want to come to you, Annie, and return to the quote that I read. So what do you make of that quote?

Annie Chau: [00:07:09] I think, like Ananya was saying, that we can't, um, separate or put on a pedestal this idea of community engaged facilitation without looking at and addressing saviorism in that. As that quote that you so astutely mentioned, right. It's part of this industrial complex, um, so it's part of the ocean that we're swimming in is white supremacy. And as again, you've noticed, like we are two women of color participating in white supremacy in our work. And at the same time, you know, my background is in also a decade of work in gender based justice that I have always been called to, to try to make the world better for many people. And that's a real desire of mine to see positive change in the world. And how do we do that, though, with the, with the structures and the frames that we have and not replicate harm, not amplify the harm that is there? So to look at it critically and to look at it personally is a really important piece of this work that many of us don't center enough.

Hani Sadati: [00:08:21] Next question I'm going to put to you both on the spot. But before that, I want to ask you if you can give one, you know, a short definition of saviorism from your own perspective, although you already talked about. But just to summarize, and if you want to give a definition, that's to set the tone for the rest of the conversation.

Annie Chau: [00:08:44] Saviorism is white supremacy guised in the form of helping.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:08:49] For me, saviorism is parachuting into a community and feeling it is our only responsibility to save them, help them fix the situation, and denying their rights and their full expertise and full capabilities to make things the way they want to. Like, I can't help questioning why are we always called to do the work by our institutions?

Hani Sadati: [00:09:18] Okay, thanks. And this is the question I was going to ask. Do you see yourself as saviors?

Annie Chau: [00:09:25] Yeah, yeah, I think this is about being honest. Right? Like I have been that savior. I continue to be that savior. It's problematic. And, um, this is sort of why, you know, earlier I was like, we need to center that really in our practice. There's no escaping it. No, there's no escaping it.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:09:46] I don't know about you, Annie, but I still like every time I'm working with marginalized communities, I come home to the comforts that the system actually has offered me as a model minority. Being South Asian in Canada. And also just having this feeling of like I did something good. Like, why do I feel good every time I come back working with marginalized communities? I mean, obviously I'm struggling like a better systems and how our structures are designed to intentionally keep them out. And, you know, I'm part of an institution that permitted me to come in at this time, you know, of the world. You know, obviously these systems were not designed for us. Right, Annie? Yeah. Um, at the end of the day, I always benefit from this work. The institutions that I am part of are always going to benefit from this work. Like, I think we have to critically question, like, all this work we've done in community engagement, has it actually really overhauled and changed systems for them? It's not. Things are just continuing to get worse in this world, and we see it being played out right now with the USA funding being cut. And like just seeing how like imperialism and the global north, just has such a strong hold on the global south, for example.

Hani Sadati: [00:10:58] Yeah. Thank you so much. Ananya. Um, Annie, does it resonate with you? Anything you want to add to that?

Annie Chau: [00:11:06] I think that it's part of the work. This is the struggle, right? It's part of the work that the current context we're in, where institutions have money and they have these pet projects, or they want to seem this way with this community and all of this stuff. And that's so problematic. And you know what? While they're making other decisions, you know, in terms of their other, um, funding. And at the same time, okay, it is there the funding is there, at an individual local level there can be really transformative pieces. Not for structures and societies or institutions, but possibly for people. And you have to hold on to a little of that. Otherwise you just give up. Right? If we're saying white supremacy is everywhere, it's in these institutions. It's like hundreds of years old. Okay. But we need to, we are still called to do something.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:12:11] Like, if we leave, the system wins.

Annie Chau: [00:12:14] Yeah. And like now, now is not the time to leave.

Hani Sadati: [00:12:19] That's powerful. Thank you. Yeah. I love this self-criticism that you are bringing to this conversation. And, you know, the thinking about the position and positionality and, you know, that's really great and powerful. Where are you now after these experiences that you just shared these stories, where are you now and what did you learn from those situations? Maybe I can start with Annie.

Annie Chau: [00:12:50] Yeah. Um, as you shared in my bio, I had worked for a decade or so in gender justice, working for a women's organization, a feminist organization. Part of that work that I did at the Women's Center was working with a Mi'kmaq community, and I am not indigenous. And there were many times, while working in that community, where I was told that's not the right way. We don't want to be represented in this way. We don't want to have this, you know. And so a real lesson for me in that, a few lessons, but one of the big takeaways from that was, you know, just showing up and trying to build those relationships and taking the time to and just showing up and saying, where do you need me? And I remember the first few weeks in community, you know, it was Christmas time, December-time. And I was wrapping presents for a, like a toy drive in the community and certainly trying to explain that to the Women's Center. I was supposed to work on gender justice and talk about consent and all these sort of things. No, they just wanted me to wrap presents for their toy drive. Right. You know, I was humbled to know what I could do, and that was where I was needed at that time. And then after some time, we were able to do work, some work on gender justice. But it's not expecting that what you come in with right away is going to happen, is wanted, but to show up and really be present and follow and listen.

Hani Sadati: [00:14:26] Thank you, Ananya. Yeah. How about you? What, uh, what did you what were your lessons learned? And where are you now?

Ananya Banerjee: [00:14:37] Yeah. I mean, I just feel like I've been just constantly trying to figure things out. Like, what are the best practices, you know, when it comes to community engagement? And I realize I still don't know what that is, and it truly has to be guided by communities. You know, we are part of these institutions that feel like we are the only ones capable of doing the work. And I still remember, you know, during my PhD, I was asked to travel to India for a huge research project, and they had asked me because they needed someone who can speak Bengali, because that's the region where they were doing a series of qualitative interviews with parents who had children with cleft lip palate and needed surgery. But many of these families lived in rural areas and they didn't have access to surgical care. It was very delayed, actually. So when I went in, I still remember there was one interview I was about to start, and I asked the parent if they had any questions before I started, and he said, out of a billion people in India, could they not have found a qualitative researcher? Why you all the way from Canada? And I just remember that moment thinking, why me? Like why did they spend probably up to $10,000 flying me in, parachuting me in and doing these interviews? And the worst part was when I entered the region, I realized they spoke a different dialect than I did.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:16:17] So, you know, it's these institutions, right? And I was a naive young PhD woman, you know, wanted to go in. And, you know, it's crazy where it's like I visit India so many times, my family, and this is the first time I entered as a researcher and I realized I do not belong here, as a researcher. They have plenty of qualitative researchers who can do this work on the ground, who have built trust with these communities, like, why would they want to talk to someone who has zero idea of growing up or living in a rural area, or any experience of being denied access to health care? So that was a huge awakening for me. And so I actually left any work related to community for many years that even includes locally, because I realized I really need to check in with myself and realize what the purpose of this work was. What was my purpose?

Ananya Banerjee: [00:17:14] And so, you know, eventually, now I do a lot of community-engaged work, but I also realize the education system that I was part of at McMaster failed me. They didn't prepare me to do work with communities. Right. They prepared me to harm communities. And so for me now, as an educator that teaches a lot of courses on social justice and equity in public health, medicine, global health, and so forth. I make sure that students really question why they're entering any setting, particularly if they don't have the true lived experiences or the contexts of that place, and ensure they're not entering as a savior. Whether you're doing research, practice, work, health promotion, you know anything. And one thing I always tell them is like, learn about these communities, right? Like, don't just see them as a community that needs to be saved, that needs your help. Like, why do they need your help? Right. Um, but also don't enter these settings without knowing the historical, colonial, the current social political contexts, the languages, the traditions, the strengths that exist. Right? What does it mean to build relationships and trust and so forth. So right now, my biggest social responsibility is sharing my story of how I harmed communities, how I'm, you know, a savior, even to this day, in many ways. Um, and that they're also conscious of this? Yeah.

Hani Sadati: [00:18:42] I appreciate that. I understand that these are hard conversations, but I appreciate your, you know, honest reflection on what you have done, what you've been, you know, in your relationship to institution that you are working in, we are all working in, Annie?

Annie Chau: [00:18:59] And I think the struggle is still there for me. I need to own up to that label of being a savior too. I've stopped that work in the community and really called to, in my PhD studies now, is to understand who I am, my own background, my own positionality more. And that was because someone in the community prompted these questions of me, right? And so I feel like in many ways, they saved me in telling me and sharing with me, you know, to really build reconciliation, to really build on that, people need to learn about themselves and their own histories. And again, history is so important, right, to how we situate ourselves, what resources we have with us, all of this stuff that I learned from community. So that's why I embarked on my PhD studies, was upon the kind of encouragement of this community. And I want to say that this community over the six projects and like many years, I, um, have deep gratitude for how they have helped and supported my learning. And, um, I don't think I was able to give the same as they were to me, but I think maybe that's one way that I can own this savior label. Is that actually, yeah, I did get a lot, actually, and I learned a lot about myself, and it's taken me on a different path that is only better for my own understanding of the world and where I am in the world.

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Sherry Ostapovitch: [00:20:44] Stay tuned for the final installment of Saving or Engaging? Rethinking Community Facilitation, where Hani Sadati speaks to Ananya Banerjee and Annie Chau about how they steer clear of saviorism in their work today. There are some important takeaways for anyone who works with communities, whether you are new to the work or an experienced facilitator.

Hani Sadati: [00:21:04] Among these reflections, how social responsibility plays a role and then how that can help us finding the path we are walking on in this journey? Anything related to that that would be helpful for this conversation, I would appreciate.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:21:18] It's a lot of reflection, right? This work, you know, I'm at a stage in my career where, quote unquote, I'm known how to do really equitable community-based research, right? So I'm always called in to do work with communities, but what I want is communities to call on me, if they want me to do this research. And, you know, I'm not telling people to stop, especially those young students out there who want to fly to India or, you know, Kenya, Guatemala for the summer. I'm not stopping you to do that. I'm just asking you to take some time and to really reflect: what is the purpose? And if you are going to embark on an opportunity, talk to the community first and just ask them, how can I best support you this summer? Do you even need me this summer? Because we extract, extract, extract right when we are doing community engagement work. Like, let's not kid ourselves, right? And for me now, when often fellow academics come to me and like, we're doing this community engagement project, we'd love for you to come on as the expert. I sit with them for an hour and I'm like, what is the purpose? Why do you need me? Why isn't the community at these meetings right? Like, I want to make sure they want me. And I'm actually starting to have a lot of hard conversations with community. And, like, actually, it was one project that I was like, everyone's like, you need to apply for it. You're so close with the South Asian communities in Canada, like, let's do this. And you know, I was like, you know what? Okay, so I went to my community partners and I was like, look, you know, there's a whole new grant opportunity for diabetes prevention.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:23:15] What are your thoughts? Do you want to collaborate together? And I remember the community leader looked at me and was like, we are going to get diabetes no matter what. If you have a project where we can really fight for anti-poverty in this neighborhood, if you can call and make sure the Quebec government starts addressing our health deserts, you know, our built environments, food insecurity, like you name it. He's like, if you're willing to do that, I will partner with you. But if you're coming in here to just do another diabetes prevention program, don't waste your time. I sat there and I was like, all right, we're not moving forward. And I went back and I told the team, I'm like, we're not doing this project because it's a waste of time, the community they will get zero benefit, you know. And I remember one colleague's like, oh my God, but you're perfect we can get like $500,000. I was like, nope, I don't need it. So those are some difficult moments, right? And again, you have to come to a stage of my career where I have that protection. Like, I'm not going to lose my job for not applying for that grant. But again, the concept of saviorism is also about extraction and just growing your recognition as the expert and just getting those publications, those grants out, building your CV and so forth. So just asking everyone out there just really question if you're the right person and if your institution is the right place to do this work in partnership with community.

Hani Sadati: [00:24:46] Okay, thanks. Annie, any reflection on social responsibility in this context?

Annie Chau: [00:24:52] Yeah. I think let's maybe reframe that as responsibility to relationships, to all of our relations. And I think if we center our relations more, we can understand what we bring, what we have as unique gifts to all of us, and also what others have to and to come to a point of agreement. Yes, of, you know, consent about projects. And that's how we can do this work better, I think. And yeah, your example, I think is a great one. And to say no when it doesn't work. Step back, step back. It's okay. And yeah, in your introduction, like when do you step in and step back? What does the community want us to do with, you know, stepping in and stepping back?

Hani Sadati: [00:25:38] Great. Thank you. These are great thoughts and advices as my last question. We have this conversation. People might wonder what further advices you might have for those who want to engage meaningfully in community engagement activities.

Annie Chau: [00:25:55] I think you have to own that savior shit like you have to like you can't separate that, honestly. Nonprofit, industrial complex, academia like facilitation all around the board that's funded in certain ways, right, is part of a savior complex. You know, this is why we are drawn to this topic, right? Because we're like, we need to just share our stories of these experiences because they are owning up to that shit.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:26:25] Yeah, absolutely. And we need to stop romanticizing community engagement. Like it's so annoying. Like, even the way people talk about their work with communities, right? And, like, making them already further intellectually in a very vulnerable position. You know, I think what's really important is also is that there are many incredible grassroots organizations at the research practice policy level that are doing incredible work. The difference between them and us, they're doing this work quietly. They don't care for exposure, unlike us. Right. And we don't know if they're even existing. Right. And so often when we are called on as academics from these academic institutions that we have to go and do the work, we don't. We don't even need to build capacity. They can do it. What they need is resources. Like let's transfer our million-dollar funding from social science and humanities research to them and do the work. And I think we need to change the funding structures as well. Right? We can't apply anymore as like the lead, you know, principal investigators and so forth, right. We are always looking to partner with communities to get funding opportunities. Can we be at a stage now where communities can apply on their own? And then they ask if they want an academic to work with them, like we need to reverse the situation. And until we really start to change the funding mechanisms, structures, systems and seeing who are experts. We're just going to continue to just promote, as Teju Cole says, the white savior industrial complex.

Hani Sadati: [00:28:12] Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. I would like to thank again, both of you for your time today. Again, my name is Hani Sadati And I would like to thank Dr. Ananya Tina Banerjee and Annie Chau for your time and sharing your thoughts and experiences with us today.

Annie Chau: [00:28:32] Thank you.

Ananya Banerjee: [00:28:33] Thank you.

Sherry Ostapovitch: [00:28:34] You've just listened to Saving or Engaging? Rethinking Community Facilitation, part of the Pedagogies of Community Engagement Collective special podcast series on the WhyPAR Podcast. Make sure you catch the other two episodes, such as From “Oh shit!” to “Oh shift”, where you can find out how facilitators navigate when things don't quite go according to plan. Or learn about facilitation doulas, smugglers, and translators in the episode Facilitator Archetypes: Navigating Institutions as Community-Engaged Facilitators.